A former prison governor gave This Morning viewers a rare insight into female serial killers Rose West and Myra Hindley.
Former prison governor Vanessa Frake reveals all about her experiences working in the prison system in a new book, The Governor: My Life Inside Britain's Most Notorious Prisons.
Over her 16 years in a high-security women's prison before becoming a governor, Vanessa often came face-to-face with notrious serial killers such as Rosemary West and Myra Hindler.
West had joined her husband Fred West in the murder of at least nine young women between 1973 and 1987 and also murdered her eight-year-old stepdaughter in 1971. She remains imprisoned at the age of 67.
Meanwhile, Myra Hindley was one of the killers in the Moors Murders alongside her lover Ian Brady and was responsible for the murders of five children in and around Manchester from July 1963 to October 1965. Hindley died at the age of 60 in prison in 2002.
Speaking on This Morning with Dermot O'Leary and Alison Hammond, Vanessa revealed: "As I've gone on in my life, people find out what I did for a living, they would say 'I bet you could tell a good story'".
After meeting her ghost writer, Vanessa decided to tell her story with her help and also found herself going over memories.
"I think writing this book helped pull out things and deal with things that I hadn't possibly dealt with at the time," revealed Vanessa.
Alison asked Vanessa if she ever felt scared by her encounters with prolific killers and the former prison governor said she did not.
"No, I think if you spoke to any officer or any member of prison staff, if you felt fear you would not be able to walk in," notes Vanessa. "There is assaults on staff, they do happen. The best remedy for it is to get back on it, like if you fell off a bicycle. You can't do your job in fear."
Dermot questioned whether the likes of West and Hindley were treated any differently due to their profile.
Vanessa answered: "I'd like to say no, but yes, they are, without a doubt.
"You couldn't have someone as high profile as Myra Hindley or Rose West being assaulted in prison or worse than that as the adverse publicity at that particular prison would be unreal."
The former prison governor also discussed having a cup of tea made my Myra Hindley, once dubbed "the most evil woman in Britain".
Did she take the tea?
Vanessa revealed: "Of course I did, I was thirsty."
Laughing, Alison asked: "Did she make a good brew?"
"She made a good cup of tea," answered Vanessa.
"She was the tea orderly in receptions and we were taking Christmas there and I think the staff wanted to parade her around a bit.
"To be honest, you keep putting that photo up with the bleached blonde hair but it looked absolutely nothing like her.
"She had sort of longish shoulder-length mousy brown hair, she was dressed in some dodgy-looking cardigan, you'd kinda see like pushing a trolley around a well-known supermarket, to be honest. You just wouldn't think."
Vanessa concluded of these killers: "At the end of the day, any notorious prisoners, they're the same as you and I, at the end of the day."
Vanessa also claimed that women were more difficult to work with than men, which she found when she became Governor of Security and Operations for HMP Wormwood Scrubs.
She noted: "A lot of women prisons, women are usually the carers, they have a lot of social issues, they're often about the family, have suffered abuse that led them to prison..."
Vanessa added that men tended to be "more respectful" on the whole.
She also revealed the time she felt in the presence of pure evil was serial killer Colin Ireland, known as the 'Gay Slayer' due to his or homosexual victims, when she bumped into him in a prison canteen.
"Not very often do the hairs on the back of my neck stand up, but they certainly did when I met him," she described.
Vanessa hopes that people understand the "good things" that go on in prisons in terms of care and rehabilitation, as attitudes are very much focused on "retribution" in the UK.
*This Morning continues on weekdays from 10am to 12.30pm on ITV.